From: "Tomas Ohlin" <tomas.ohlin@telo.se>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:16:28 +0200
From: Auli Keskinen <Auli.Keskinen@vyh.fi>
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:14:33 +0300
From: "Mike Harrop" <mharrop@bigfoot.com>
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:59:51 -0400
From: Jozef.Verhulst@ping.be (Jozef Verhulst)
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:26:00 +0200
From: Sabine Haenni-Hildbrand <Sabine.Hildbrand@droit.unige.ch>
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:24:15 +0200
From: Jiri Polak <jiri.polak@swipnet.se>
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 00:13:20 -0500
From: "Bruce A Eggum" <eggy@comfortable.com>
Subject: re Direct peoples imput into Parliment
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:22:49 -0500
From: "Ian Green" <iangreen@ao.com.au>
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:12:22 +1000
From: "Andrzej Kaczmarczyk" <akamar@imm.org.pl>
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 13:57:20 +0200
To: Andrzej Kaczmarczyk <akamar@imm.org.pl>
From: Michael Macpherson <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: 07.05.1999
From: "Andrzej Kaczmarczyk" <akamar@imm.org.pl>
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:18:02 +0200
subject: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
from: Michael Macpherson mjm@snafu.de
date: ca. 4th May 1999
Dear Colleagues, Friends
I would appreciate your reaction to this draft.
Also I wonder if you know other experts on British law and politics who might be supportive or constructively critical - please let me have contacts.
Best wishes,
Michael.
_________________________________________________________________
Before circulating the following, I request the comments of colleagues and friends. This is a rough draft, and needs to be improved before publishing.
_________________________________________________________________
A way to revive democracy, and the debate about it, in Britain (maybe elsewhere, too).
In Britain a law can be drafted and put before parliament by a single citizen. This has always seemed complicated and in recent decades as far as I know has happened very rarely. In some other countries a certain minority-percentage of citizens can introduce a new law to parliament by giving their signatures. What if very many thousands of British citizens were to sign a proposal for a new law? Could a way be then found to bring it before the elected law-makers at Westminster? I am not enthusiastic about petitions - their effects are seldom clear. But, this is not an ordinary petition - it is a demand to express our right to decide about our own (public) affairs. Also, by reading this, maybe more people will realise just how little say they usually have, and some will want to help make changes. The bottom line of a demand like this reads as follows: With my signature I request my MP to support an appropriate bill into Parliament. And I can promise that in future I will elect no candidate who does not support the demand (see "Rider").
Below is my suggested proposal for a new law. It is not a parliamentary bill, but a demand that such should be prepared. Comments, refinements are very welcome. If put into effect this would enable citizens to take over governing their own affairs if and when they wished, but otherwise leave the well known systems of law-making and government in place. If you agree with the proposal then sign it, discuss it with your friends and try to get others to sign too. Return the signed proposal to ..... {How best to collect signatures? What about e-mail collections? Who can support with computer systems?}
Please note the "Rider" below, about electoral matters.
_________________________________________________________________
_People's proposal to renew democracy_
We the undersigned propose that a law be passed in parliament which enables and provides finance for the following forms of democracy at all levels of government from local to national, these forms of democracy to be initiated by a fair and reasonable percentage of the population, with decisions being made by an appropriate majority of voters:
1) Initiation of laws to be voted upon by the legislative body be it parliament, council or assembly. (Citizens' Initiative)
2) Referendum: The people decide, e.g. if the legislative has decided _against_ the citizens' initiatives in 1) or 3).
3) Cancellation or modification of existing laws by citizens' initiative or referendum.
4) Recall of elected public delegates, representatives and officials at any time during the usual period of office: The people decide.
A "green paper" outlining the relevant practices of democracy in other countries and describing different options and the reasons for these shall be rapidly written and made available via wide-area computer networks such as Internet.
Signed
.......
.......
and
Michael Macpherson mjm@snafu.de
_________________________________________________________________
Rider
By signing the foregoing demand I mandate my Member of Parliament to help introduce and support an appropriate Bill. In future I will not vote for any candidate for parliamentary office (this applies also to the European Union) who does not promise to support the demand.
Signed
.......
.......
and
Michael Macpherson mjm@snafu.de
Reply-To: "Tomas Ohlin" <tomas.ohlin@telo.se>
From: "Tomas Ohlin" <tomas.ohlin@telo.se>
To: "Michael Macpherson" <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Subject: SV: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:16:28 +0200
Michael,
Your text is very interesting.
This is a topic that I have been working on, had in mind,
for many years now. And there is much to say about it.
Time is too short for me now, unfortunately.
Let me enclose an early
article that I published in 1971 about citizen influence.
I did translate it, I remember ....
At least it is early ....
I often come to think about Ted Becker´s site TANN
and the references there. And the DD conf in Prague
last year.
How much effort do you plan to spend on work in this field?
Are you interested in references in UK only?
In Sweden we have a local law that tells that the commune
head organization has to accept for consideration any legal suggestion
that
emanates from above five percent of the local citizens. But very
few, almost none, of the communes have followed this law! Bad!
Tomas
Attachment converted: macHD:Democracy1971.doc (WDBN/MSWD) (00015C0D)
Envelope-to: mjm@berlin.snafu.de
Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:14:33 +0300
From: Auli Keskinen <Auli.Keskinen@vyh.fi>
Organization: Ymparistoministerio
Hi Michael, all I can advice
is to contact the GOL people in the UK,
and ask them.
for example Mike Harrop
mharrop@bigfoot.com.
I only know administration people there,
not politicians I'm afraid.
auli
--
Auli Keskinen
Director, Research and Development
Information Society and Sustainable Development
Ministry of the Environment
Postal Addr: PO Box 380, FIN - 00131 Helsinki
Visiting Addr: Kasarmikatu 25, 5th floor
Tel: +358 9 1991 9454
Fax: +358 9 1991 9453
Mobile: +358 40 5445 283
Email: auli.keskinen@vyh.fi
http://www.tukkk.fi/tutu/FUTU/futuengl.htm (-> people)
http://www.auburn.edu/tann/tann2/masthead.html#KESKINEN
From: "Mike Harrop" <mharrop@bigfoot.com>
To: "Michael Macpherson" <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Subject: Re: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:59:51 -0400
Although I live in Canada we also operate under the Wesminster system
(albeit with some procedural modifications). I like the idea of a green
paper on democracy. I think it should include consideration of how
the
democratic process is being circumvented.
I hadn't realized that citizens could propose a bill. However, even though it may be possible, such a bill would have faint hope of being passed. Look at what happens to private members' bills. Nothing gets through parliament without the support (and sponsorship) of the government of the day.
In Canada it's worse than the UK as the party in power tolerates no dissent from it's MPs. They are expected to follow the party line and vote in favour of all bills. No concept of independence. Memebrs who vote against the party line are kicked out of caucus. At least in the UK the government expects a few defeats each year and. as long as it's not on a fiscal matter or a vote of confidence, it's tolerated.
I would note that we do appear to have a provision for recall - it actually happened last year to a member from BC. However, I can't recall if it is explicitly in parliamentory procedures, whether it was a formal or informal thing, or whether it happened federally or provincially.
As I said, a green paper is a good idea though, to be credible, it would
have to be drafted mainly by people who know and understand the
parliamentory system, as opposed to those who are merely "interested".
(I
suggest you focus on the parliaments based on the Westminster model
only as it keeps the issue fairly focussed and would allow the exposure
of how the democratic process has been gradually eroded.)
Hope that helps.
(Mike Harrop)
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:26:00 +0200
To: Michael Macpherson <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
From: Jozef.Verhulst@ping.be (Jozef Verhulst)
Subject: Re: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
Dear Michael,
Unfortunately, I do not know any experts on British law. Petitions by
single citizens also exist in Belgium, but their use is insignificant.
About one or two years ago, a new law was adopted at the regional (Flemish)
level: 15.000 Flemish citizens can introduce a new law , and
in this case,
the members of the Flemish parliament have to pay some public attention
to
it. However, this new measure also turns out to be of very limited
value.
One week ago, we had a discussion here with some people from Germany
('Mehr
Demokratie'). Are you member of a similar British organization?
Best wishes
Jos
Dear Mr. Macpherson,
There is a misunderstanding. At the Czech DD conference, I presented
the
Swiss system of direct democracy. Unfortunately, I do not know the
British
system and do not know any experts on British law. Actually, there
was
nobody from Britain at the conference.
Best regards,
Sabine Haenni-Hildbrand
Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 00:13:20 -0500
From: Jiri Polak <jiri.polak@swipnet.se>
Subject: Re: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
To: Michael Macpherson <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Dear Dr.Macpherson, thank you for sending me the draft! I agree
with it, of course, but I am not British citizen. The only name
in Britain in the sphere of DD I know is Clare Delap. She was
scheduled do come to our Pribram conference but did not come.
I don´t have her address but I believe prof.Becker, USA, has
it
so I suggest you contact him. He might even know more people in
Britain. I hope you have received the April issue of our News-
letter. With my best regards Jiri Polak
From: "Bruce A Eggum" <eggy@comfortable.com>
To: "Michael Macpherson" <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Subject: re Direct peoples imput into Parliment
Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:22:49 -0500
Hi Michael, glad to hear from you.
Yes Michael, this is an excellent idea. In the United States,
there are some states, California, Tennessee, Arizona which allow citizens
to present law and constitutional amendments directly in to the election
to become law. I am not presently allowed to do this in Wisconsin,
the state I live in. I do not believe that citizens can submit
directly to the United States Federal Government at this time either.
This would be an excellent way to begin "Democracy" as it would
likely cause people to become more educated about the tools necessary
to maintain "Liberty", Equality, Justice, and other Virtues. You
certainly do not want a "pure" democracy, as the media and its wild
extremes would end the earth in a short time. The media instills
information into the public, like a lynch mob wanting to hang , or tar
and feather someone.
Example: Yugoslavia! NATO, the US with Germany GOV also shouting
loudly, decides to bomb for humanitarian sake. The (alleged) atrocities
are horrible, they say. Now, a German Court, has found no evidence
of these alleged atrocities. First the sentence, than the verdict
??? http://zmag.org/germandocs.htm The Media has not exposed the
wrongs of our governments, indeed they have influenced a huge body
of people to escalate this mess.
Democr@cy Forum is silent on the above issue, and other issues,
waiting I guess for someone to "develop" a way to use IPT. Well,
we are using IPT. The US GOV has finally got some sites going for
impute from the people. I will send them in another mail.
I have been meaning to research this a bit so your note prompted
me to start. John Suhr was at Dem Forum briefly, he may be of help as he
lives in California. send his email to: ElecCity@aol.com
He chose to put his efforts elsewhere as I have, at the lack of action
at the site. I still receive postings and respond occasionally.
I am attaching the applicable law, some of it. You need this to give
you authority and a method to submit the "Initiative" which becomes
a "Proposal" when accepted for the electorate. The rest is linked
below.
I did some searching, using Google http://www.google.com re California
Government Initiative (law) (proposal). I found "law" at
8. ELECTIONS CODE SECTION 9600-9606
California Elections Code 9000-9015 Constitution or State Law
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/calawquery?codesection=elec&codesection=prc&codebody=initiative&hits=20
>
If you search California Initiatives you will find a number of
these propositions on the web. I would like to get this going in
Wisconsin. Good Luck ! If I get more info, I will send it. If I
can be of more help let me know. I could research specifics if you
like. I have a number of sites on Yugoslavia, and there is
a huge question about NATO, what are it's true motives? Is this a
political move toward "Global Government" ? If so, it is the move of a
tyrant (s) !!!!
Hope this helps, and you are able to accomplish it, Bruce
PS Perhaps you could start a discussion on Democr@cy Forum after
you have a beginning, asking for info. It will take a lot of us
to get this off the ground, and each country needs it!
Attachment converted: macHD:Iniative 1.txt (TEXT/MSIE) (00015E95)
From: "Ian Green" <iangreen@ao.com.au>
To: "Michael Macpherson" <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Subject: RE: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 09:12:22 +1000
Hi Michael,
Firstly I had better point out that I am not an "expert" on British
law and
politics, but I have done first year Business Law (Common Law,
Contracts,... ) in a Commerce Degree (not as rigorous as actual Law
students
undergo), and I have also done 4 units of "War and Modern Industrial
Society" in a B.A. Social Science degree (that I did not finish), that
covered politics (between 1872 and 1972) in various European arenas
including Britain.
I don't personally know any experts on that subject.
Your idea interests me but, you are correct in your intention to get
expert
comment before going public with it. The proposal will probably require
substantial rephrasing and refinement in order to simultaneously be
perfectly readable by the masses, and include a subtle use of just
the right
amount of jargon specific to the Common Law and English Parliamentary
(and
constitutional) history.
Many people will discount a proposal merely because it sounds like it
comes
from an amateur. (Even though the purpose of the proposal is to wrest
control of politics (and law) from the professionals and deliver it
to the
masses!) I'm not suggesting that your proposal doesn't already meet
these
standards, but I am not the most perfect judge of that, being an Australian,
a mere colonial descendant who has to queue with the non-Europeans
at the
airport in London!
Regards,
Ian Green
Dear Dr. Macpherson,
I am professional in information processing, outsider in law, so I don't
know any law experts.
I agree with your suggested proposal for a new law in the form of a
"demand". I think that the contents of the demand is expressed in a
clear manner, and I don't lay any refinements to your text.
I am of the opinion, that it would be better to locate the action not
on
the contry/national level, but on the level of the EU. I imagine, that
such a law could become an element of "common European law", and that
the demand of introducing of proper parliamentary bills in EU's
countries would be an act of the European Parliament.
In the case of the EU-level action, a "rider" - e.g. in the form of
a
short letter containing the text of suggested demand - ought to be
sent
by supporters to the President of the European Commission, Members
of
the European Parliament or/and other EU institutions.
Being a follower of the proposed action, both on national and European
level, I am a little sceptic about results. I think, that the principle
"the people decide" can not be practically introduced by politicians
in
present conditions of classic, parliamentary democracy - not the people,
but party politicians decide and want to continue. I think, that the
chance for "the people decide" are in cyberspace, and the transformation
could really start when we pass from the present paper-and-meeting
political space to the cyberspace enabling permanent referendum and
legislative work in open groups, accessible for all citizens.
Kind regards,
Andrzej
To: Andrzej Kaczmarczyk <akamar@imm.org.pl>
From: Michael Macpherson <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Date: 07.05.1999
Subject: Re: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
Dear Andrzej,
You wrote 6th June 1999
>I am professional in information processing, outsider in law, so I
don't
>know any law experts.
>
>I agree with your suggested proposal for a new law in the form of
a
>"demand". I think that the contents of the demand is expressed in
a
>clear manner, and I don't lay any refinements to your text.
>
>I am of the opinion, that it would be better to locate the action
not on
>the country/national level, but on the level of the EU. I imagine,
that
>such a law could become an element of "common European law", and that
>the demand of introducing of proper parliamentary bills in EU's
>countries would be an act of the European Parliament.
(INSERT: I have just re-read your above paragraph after completing my reply. Maybe you mean that the EU should pass a decree (a "law") to introduce where necessary some improvements in democratic systems within the member states. A bit in the way that the Council of Europe tries to impose minimal human rights. Well, because of deficiencies in EU democracy a decree like that would perhaps not be so good ;-). However, such a recommendation, say by the commission or parliament, could not do any harm - a good idea, I think.)
There are those who are working to "democratise" the EU. Obviously that will be a difficult task. I'm not an expert on EU matters. There seem to be at least a few large barriers to broader public participation in EU affairs which include:
- neither EU nor European Commission is a government. Without trying to go deeply into an attempt to define what it is, I would say it's a coordinating and bargaining centre for governments of the states, plus (not uncommonly) autocratic adminstrative functions of the commission. The EU parliament certainly cannot direct the governing council of ministers. And it can't fully control the Commission. So, where should "the peoples" intervene? O.K., there could be a pan-european referendum on a fundamental question, to "set the points" for the future e.g. family of nations vs. single federal state with constitution. How would you fix the voting system and required majority?
- How does one (the citizens or anybody else) organise participation in governance when 15 or (coming) maybe 20 countries are involved? In most states, especially the bigger ones, it's too much at present to organise a referendum within the state itself. (I'm in favour of attemting things which are achievable. That's more convincing if the reform in question is already being practised somewhere. E.g. Citizen-initiated referendum, recall of representatives etc.. And, I do not want to wait to start reforms until every citizen is on-line and politically active. Nothing against utopias but we do have to show how to go in those direction from where we are now.)
- many important supranational decision are taken in bodies other than EU, commonly economic organisations such as OECD and World Trade Organisation. If citizens even try to sanction one of these, then the matter in question may be "smuggled" by the powers-that-be to another one (compare Multilateral Agreement on Investments MAI). How can citzens directly intervene in supra-state functions? Very difficult.
>
>In the case of the EU-level action, a "rider" - e.g. in the form of
a
>short letter containing the text of suggested demand - ought to be
sent
>by supporters to the President of the European Commission, Members
of
>the European Parliament or/and other EU institutions.
I agree that demands should be made to improve democracy of the EU. That's why my draft People's proposal contained a remark to Euro MPs and candidates. If a campaign from People's proposal (or similar actions) gets off the ground, then this type of demand will naturally emerge.
To get people to join in, you have to show how they can contribute to real governance, and demonstrate that their actions have a reasonable chance of success.
To summarise my above points, I think it's essential that we attempt to improve citizen participation at _all_ levels of public governance. I appreciate that conditions are different in east and west Europe - some time later maybe we can discuss how things are in Poland. Do you ever come to Berlin? Or even Frankfurt/Slubice or Poznan (not too far from here).
>
>Being a follower of the proposed action, both on national and European
>level, I am a little sceptic about results. I think, that the principle
>"the people decide" can not be practically introduced by politicians
in
>present conditions of classic, parliamentary democracy - not the people,
>but party politicians decide and want to continue.
Well, in Britain signficant improvements could easily be made just by introducing some of the DD practices of Switzerland or some US states. (At present they do not exist and will probably be blocked by parliament and gov..) I agree that they could be greatly facilitated by ICT, e.g for initiating, announcing, informing, debating and voting.
I think, that the
>chance for "the people decide" are in cyberspace, and the transformation
>could really start when we pass from the present paper-and-meeting
>political space to the cyberspace enabling permanent referendum and
>legislative work in open groups, accessible for all citizens.
Yes but we must not wait before attempting reforms. Citizens must get more used to participating. If a more watchful society does not develop then ICT could bring about a nightmare of dictatorship. Cyberspace will continue to expand and complexify, but in which directions? (See "Orwell in Athens", referred to in my paper http://www.snafu.de/~mjm/CP/cp.html)
I have read your Cyberdemocracy paper and found many of the ideas to be fine. Have advertised the work in a few lists.
Good wishes,
Michael.
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:18:02 +0200
From: "A. Kaczmarczyk" <akamar@imm.org.pl>
To: Michael Macpherson <mjm@berlin.snafu.de>
Subject: Re: rfc/People's proposal to renew democracy
Dear Michael,
You are right in almost all of your remarks, particularly in EU matters
(European Commission isn't any government, Europeans aren't citizens
of
the EU, and so on).
However: I see and feel EU problems from a perspective of Poland, which
is on the stage of its EU membership negotiations. These negotiations
contain a "screening" process of our existing legislation areas, and
then, as a result, a proper transformation of Polish legislation will
be
necessary. Remembering that EU has been through this as it expanded
from
the original 6 nations in the 1950s to the current 15, one can suppose,
that a screening of existing legislation of all EU members could
be
done in similar form - with participation of European Commission
experts, as an undertaking of a "renewing democracy" program. Citizens
of the EU countries could postulate such a program sending letters
to
the President of the European Commission. Of course, it's a very weak
affection. Maybe some link to the European Council activities could
be
helpful.
Therefore, I agree with you, that the final result has to have a form
of
national law in each country. But I don't see any other - than EU -
common platform for initialisation of an action to establish such law
in
various countries; what common (!) activities can we - you and me e.g.
-
perform in UK and in Poland directly, i.e. without EU platform?
I absolutely agree with you, that "we must not wait" for cyberspace
functions development "before attempting reforms". I think also, that
"being on-line and politically active" by almost all citizens isn't
necessary for good function of direct democracy. It will be enough,
if
all politically active ones can really participate in governance.
I don't know "Orwell in Athens", thank you for your message about it.
I'll read your paper. I'll think about a travel to Berlin, and I
encourage you to visit Warsaw.
Best wishes,
Andrzej